Article 5908 of comp.periphs.printers: Path: utkcs2!emory!ogicse!das-news.harvard.edu!spdcc!merk!uvmark!roger From: roger@uvmark.uucp (Roger MacNicol) Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers Subject: Re: HP DJ500 Printer, MS Windows and Plotter fonts (+ Inkjet quality problem) Keywords: HP DJ500, Windows, Plotter Fonts, Quality, Spatter Message-ID: <1992Dec08.140628.28017@uvmark.uucp> Date: 8 Dec 92 14:06:28 GMT Article-I.D.: uvmark.1992Dec08.140628.28017 References: <1992Dec8.031659.15024@labtam.labtam.oz.au> Organization: VMARK Software, Inc. Lines: 42 In article <1992Dec8.031659.15024@labtam.labtam.oz.au> graeme@labtam.labtam.oz.au (Graeme Gill) writes: > > I have just bought an HP Deskjet 500 and was hoping someone could help >me with a couple of problems. > > 2) Print quality. I am rather disappointed with the print quality of > the DJ500. I've had a look at it under a microscope and compared it > to printing on the same paper from a Cannon inkjet printer. The > DJ500 seems to suffer quite badly from ink spattering. There are small > drops of ink spread for quite a distance around the points where the > ink is supposed to land. In some examples it is quite obvious that > there is a systematic spatter a distance to the right of where the > ink should be. This gives the printing a smudgy look from a distance. > The Cannon printer seems to give very little spatter, and it seems > random rather than systematic. (Note that I am not talking here > about the fuzzy edges that are a result of ink running along fibers > in the paper.) > I had this problem when I first got my Deskjet and almost returned it; then I realized how extremely sensitive to paper quality the Deskjet is. You must use a very smooth (almost shiny quality of paper) to stop the ink soaking in. The ink from the deskjets needs to dry on the surface which is why they have the tray to hold the new sheet up while the sheet below dries. I now use white paper from Weyerhauser (sp?) that says it is for inkjets as well as laser printers (bought from OfficeMax at $5.90 a ream) and finally the quality really is *near-laser* with no ink splotches. This printer is worth it if you get the right paper. - Roger PS The new HP printer driver for the deskjets (3.0) gives much cleaner output than the MS unidrv but it won't print envelopes!!! it just form feeds the envelope out and prints the stupid address on the next sheet of paper - argh -- ****************************************************************** * Roger MacNicol, Snr. Software Engineer * VMark Software, Inc., 30 Speen Street, Framingham, MA 01701-1800 * email: uvmark%roger@merk.com Article 5917 of comp.periphs.printers: From: limrcd@hpsgm2.sgp.hp.com (Richard LIM) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 03:22:28 GMT Subject: Re: HP DJ500 Printer, MS Windows and Plotter fonts (+ Inkjet quality problem) Message-ID: <52700004@hpsgm2.sgp.hp.com> Organization: HP Singapore Notes-Server Path: utkcs2!emory!swrinde!elroy.jpl.nasa.gov!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!hplextra!hpcc05!hpsgm2!limrcd Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers References: <1992Dec8.031659.15024@labtam.labtam.oz.au> Lines: 18 1. First of all, the plotter fonts are vector fonts specific to the plotters. Therefore, the printer driver does not know how to create them. Hence the DJ500 will substitute some other font. Likewise, the plotter will substitute its vector fonts for all other fonts that you might choose! 2. Canon reduced their spatter by having their print head much closer to the paper than the DJ (about 3x difference). Try putting a thicker paper such as envelopes through them. Regards Richard Lim "A conclusion is where you get tired of thinking" ====================================================================== E-mail: hpsgm2.SGP.HP.COM!limrcd Snail-mail: Hewlett-Packard S'pore Tel: (065)-279-2525 (APD-ThinFilm SS/EE) Telnet: 520-2525 1150 Depot Road HPDesk: Richard Lim/HP3200/30 Singapore 0410. Article 5918 of comp.periphs.printers: From: lorenh@hpcvra.cv.hp.com (Loren Heisey) Date: Wed, 9 Dec 1992 18:29:16 GMT Subject: Re: Jet technologies Message-ID: <199570001@hpcvra.cv.hp.com> Organization: Hewlett-Packard Co., Corvallis, OR, USA Path: utkcs2!emory!swrinde!zaphod.mps.ohio-state.edu!sdd.hp.com!hp-cv!hp-pcd!hpcvra!lorenh Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers References: <1992Dec7.041044.8648@bhprtc.scpd.oz.au> Lines: 19 >Can someone tell me which of the jet-type printers use the >thermal 'bubble-jet' system and which use the piezo-electric >technology. Any technical info on the inner workings >of such printers would be much appreciated (ie. temperatures >used, etc). Also, why do these printers all use water based >inks. Is it environmental niceness or is it something >fundamental about the way they operate that makes this preferable? A good source for info on how HP's inkjet cartridges work and on the ink they use is the Hewlett-Packard Journal. For example the August 1992 issue covered the cartridges used in the DeskJet 500C. The journals can be found at some university libraries. The contact for inquiries about the journal is: Editor, Hewlett-Packard Journal, 3200 Hillview Avenue, Palo Alto, CA 94304 USA. -- Loren Heisey Internet: lorenh@hpcvra.cv.hp.com UUCP : {decwrl|rutgers|ucbvax}!hplabs!hp-pcd!lorenh Article 6018 of comp.periphs.printers: From: limrcd@hpsgm2.sgp.hp.com (Richard LIM) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 09:23:41 GMT Subject: Re: Deskjet - Ink carts not lasting Message-ID: <52700009@hpsgm2.sgp.hp.com> Organization: HP Singapore Notes-Server Path: utkcs2!emory!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!hplextra!hpcc05!hpsgm2!limrcd Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers References: Lines: 14 Sounds like you have a worn out service station. Call the nearest HP HelpLine and describe your problem. They should send you a SERVICE STATION UPGRADE KIT which you can use to fix the problem. Regards Richard Lim "A conclusion is where you get tired of thinking" ====================================================================== E-mail: hpsgm2.SGP.HP.COM!limrcd Snail-mail: Hewlett-Packard S'pore Tel: (065)-279-2525 (APD-ThinFilm SS/EE) Telnet: 520-2525 1150 Depot Road HPDesk: Richard Lim/HP3200/30 Singapore 0410. Article 5959 of comp.periphs.printers: Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers Path: utkcs2!willis1.cis.uab.edu!gatech!europa.asd.contel.com!emory!wupost!sdd.hp.com!apollo.hp.com!cupnews0.cup.hp.com!hppad.waterloo.hp.com!rypma From: rypma@waterloo.hp.com (Ted Rypma) Subject: Re: Add memory for HP DJ500 ? Sender: news@waterloo.hp.com (NetNews) Message-ID: Date: Sun, 13 Dec 1992 22:47:16 GMT References: Organization: HP Panacom Div Waterloo ON Canada X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.1.4 PL6] Lines: 19 Dennis Peterson (dennis@pete.uucp) wrote: : : I just purchased a DJ500 for use at home. Most of my printing is : with Windows apps using True Type fonts. I would like to know if : windows would take advantage of the added memory for downloading : fonts. : Would I gain any speed or quality for normal use? No to both questions. The DeskJet printers use their memory cartridges only for soft fonts - if you're not using them, don't waste the money on RAM. Windows can, I believe, use internal soft fonts but does much better with TrueType and other such fonts. Ted Rypma HP Panacom Division Waterloo, Ontario (speaking entirely for himself) Article 5962 of comp.periphs.printers: Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers Path: utkcs2!darwin.sura.net!spool.mu.edu!uunet!unislc!dold From: dold@unislc.uucp (Clarence Dold) Subject: Re: Add memory for HP DJ500 ? References: Message-ID: <1992Dec14.031112.536@unislc.uucp> Organization: Unisys Corporation SLC Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 03:11:12 GMT Lines: 36 From article , by rypma@waterloo.hp.com (Ted Rypma): > Dennis Peterson (dennis@pete.uucp) wrote: > : windows would take advantage of the added memory for downloading > No to both questions. The DeskJet printers use their memory cartridges > only for soft fonts - if you're not using them, don't waste the money This answer is correct. For the newbie, further explanation is in order. The DeskJet series has some internal fonts. These are fast to use, but limited. You can add cartridges, from HP, or others, that contain hardcoded fonts, fast, but still a little limited. You can add RAM, and then download soft fonts to the extra RAM. These are ultimately fast, but they are cumbersome to use, and require downloading each time the power is cycled on the printer. If you forget to download, your printout is ugly (useless). They take a substantial time to download; and in my case, I have too many to fit in RAM, so I must selectively download the ones I want. The extra RAM that you might add is used for nothing but storing fonts. It does not improve graphics speed. It does not add to the print charcter buffer capacity. It is only for font download. Some font drivers send the print page as a graphics image. All of the fonts can be manipulated at will, since they never exist in the printer as fonts, just a graphics printout. This is extremely flexible, easy to configure, brainless to use. It is a little slow, perhaps dreadfully, for some fonts, because printing the graphic image of a particular character is much slower than telling the printer to refer to a resident font to print a character. This is the method that Windows uses. It will gain nothing from a RAM cartridge. -- --- Clarence A Dold - dold@unislc.slc.Unisys.COM ...pyramid!ctnews!tsmiti!dold Article 6017 of comp.periphs.printers: From: limrcd@hpsgm2.sgp.hp.com (Richard LIM) Date: Mon, 14 Dec 1992 09:19:21 GMT Subject: Re: Add memory for HP DJ500 ? Message-ID: <52700008@hpsgm2.sgp.hp.com> Organization: HP Singapore Notes-Server Path: utkcs2!emory!swrinde!sdd.hp.com!hpscit.sc.hp.com!hplextra!hpcc05!hpsgm2!limrcd Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers References: Lines: 30 | I just purchased a DJ500 for use at home. Most of my printing is | with Windows apps using True Type fonts. I would like to know if | windows would take advantage of the added memory for downloading | fonts. I know that the window printer setup allow specification | of the amount of installed memory but how is this information used? | | Would I gain any speed or quality for normal use? The answer is yes & no! You can make use of the added memory to download fonts that you use very often. How to get them in there is another subject by itself. You also have to configure the printer driver to recognize and use them. Either by directly accessing the specific fonts or forcing the printer driver to substitute them. If you do all these correctly, your text will be printed as TEXT rather than graphics and YES, you will see a SPEED UP. And if you use HP fonts which has been individually hand tuned for the DJ, there will be a QUALITY IMPROVEMENT too! I used to do that for Wordstar & Prestige font on Windows but has since given that up (too much work). Regards Richard Lim "A conclusion is where you get tired of thinking" =========================================Em2.SGP.HP.C EE) Telnet:k0/30 Article 7288 of comp.periphs.printers: Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers Path: cs.utk.edu!gatech!usenet.ufl.edu!usenet.cis.ufl.edu!caen!destroyer!cs.ubc.ca!uw-beaver!dylan From: dylan@cs.washington.edu (Dylan McNamee) Subject: Great DeskJet paper found Message-ID: <1993Mar25.221852.22425@beaver.cs.washington.edu> Sender: news@beaver.cs.washington.edu (USENET News System) Organization: Computer Science & Engineering, U. of Washington, Seattle Distribution: na Date: Thu, 25 Mar 93 22:18:52 GMT Lines: 13 I have found a great paper to use with the HP Deskjet printer... It's Weyerhauser's "Recycled Laser Copy", item # 1185. This paper produces better, sharper printout than any other paper I've tried, and I've tried a lot. The recycled aspect is a slight bonus, (50% total, 10% post consumer) but not a factor in my decision. I find that many high quality laser printer paper causes ink bleeding to a degree that readability is affected. Not so with this paper. Give it a try... dylan dylan@cs.washington.edu Article 18599 of comp.periphs.printers: Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers Path: cs.utk.edu!gatech!howland.reston.ans.net!math.ohio-state.edu!uwm.edu!reuter.cse.ogi.edu!hp-cv!hp-pcd!news!hp-apd-news!hpscit.sc.hp.com!hplntx!fitz From: fitz@hplaef.hpl.hp.com (Andrew Fitzhugh) Subject: Re: Which Inkjet to Buy Sender: news@hpl.hp.com (HPLabs Usenet Login) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 7 Nov 1994 18:07:26 GMT Distribution: inet Reply-To: fitz@hplaef.hpl.hp.com References: <32pd8o$2r6@clarknet.clark.net> <37frgg$ba8@newsbf01.news.aol.com> Nntp-Posting-Host: hplaef.hpl.hp.com Organization: Hewlett-Packard Laboratories, Palo Alto, CA X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Lines: 39 Dave Sill (de5@sws5.CTD.ORNL.GOV) wrote: : Let's compare apples with apples. The Epson 720dpi paper is 12 : cents/page, the HP's special paper is 100 cents/page. You are not comparing similar types of media. I've seen roughly four different types of media for inkjet printing so far (more to come, I'm sure): 1. "Plain" paper: this is usually a copier or bond paper. People tend to call these "uncoated" papers, but virtually every paper has some sort of coating (even the cheapest copier papers have a "load this side up" marking). Cost: 1-5 cents per sheet. 2. Clay-coated paper: this has the look and feel of plain paper, but with a much smoother surface. Cost: 10-20 cents per sheet. 3. Opaque glossy: this is an opaque plastic or paper backed glossy material with an even smoother surface than 2, and one which yields results with a finish similar to photographic prints. Cost: ~100 cents per sheet. 4. Transparency: a transparent plastic meant for overhead transparencies, not reflection prints. A very smooth surface. Cost: I think ~100 cents per sheet. The Epson media you refer to falls in the class of #2, while the HP media you are comparing it to falls in #3. HP sells a "Special Cutsheet Paper" that falls in class #2 for a similar price as Epson's, about 12 cents a sheet. Just a side note, for those wondering "why all these media types?": with a specialized coating on the media, the spread of the ink drop can be better controlled (no fibers to wick along), yielding smaller & rounder dots. The gain in quality comes with a gain in manufacturing cost. -- Andy "Not an official statement of the Hewlett-Packard Company" ________________________________________________________________________ Andrew Fitzhugh fitzhugh@hpl.hp.com Palo Alto, CA Hewlett-Packard Laboratories Article 22332 of comp.periphs.printers: Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers Path: cs.utk.edu!stc06.CTD.ORNL.GOV!rsg1.er.usgs.gov!jobone!newsxfer.itd.umich.edu!agate!howland.reston.ans.net!newsserver.jvnc.net!jvnc.net!ringotty4.jvnc.net!tucker From: tucker@starus.com (Nick Tucker) Subject: Re: Starjet SJ-48 Cartridge Question Message-ID: Lines: 11 Sender: news@tigger.jvnc.net (Zee News Genie) Organization: Star Micronics America X-Newsreader: Trumpet for Windows [Version 1.0 Rev B] References: Distribution: inet Date: Thu, 16 Feb 1995 16:49:52 GMT In article Geoff Butler writes: >From: Geoff Butler >Subject: Starjet SJ-48 Cartridge Question >Date: Wed, 15 Feb 1995 23:30:57 -0330 > Does anyone know if a Canon BC-01 (Ithink that's the right #) inkjet >cartridge is the same thing as a Star SC-10 cartridge? The things look >alike, but I'm not sure if the Canon will work in the SJ-48 printer. > Geoff Butler The BJ-10C cartridge will work just fine. They are the same. Article 22350 of comp.periphs.printers: Path: cs.utk.edu!emory!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!news.sprintlink.net!uunet!simtel!col.hp.com!fc.hp.com!rjn From: rjn@fc.hp.com (Bob Niland) Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers Subject: Re: Inkjet Ink Permanent? Date: 16 Feb 1995 23:24:25 GMT Organization: Colorado SuperNet Lines: 42 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3i0mr9$11a@tadpole.fc.hp.com> References: <95046.183500GUF@psuvm.psu.edu> Reply-To: rjn@csn.net NNTP-Posting-Host: hpfcma.fc.hp.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL1.4] GilbertJ.Gall wrote: > How "permanent" is the ink, say in a HP 540 Inkjet Printer? If you > are using good, acid free paper, will this ink last a *long* time, or > is it likely to fade, like electrostatic xerox copies, over a short > period of time? As far as I know, with the exception of the pigment-based black ink in the HP DeskJet 1200C, all dyes in low-end inkjet printers are "fugitive". They are not stable when exposed to light. I have a DJ 560C (which uses the same pens as the 540), and my experience, since buying it last June, has been: Dark Storage: After nine months, I can't see any change in prints I made from PhotoCD. This is better than I expected. Indirect Light: A PCD I printed and hung on the wall of my home office, where it never exposed to direct sun, has faded badly in the yellow. Direct light: A print left out in the sun, half covered, half exposed, lost a couple of stops of density in an hour (and then the wind blew it away). Direct sun is pretty destructive to most kinds of color hardcopy imaging, of course. I am generally satisfied with the 560C, but then I had a rough idea of what to expect before I bought. Unfortunately, nobody making low-end inkjet printers is specifying dye stability. If some vendor makes a breakthrough, you can expect it to be promoted in large type. Meanwhile, I imagine that many people are buying printers and being disappointed when they mount the output in adverse venues. You are wise to ask first. I would like the industry to move in the direction of more stable dyes in the future (after they get the spot size down to & [real] resolution above 600 dpi :-) Regards, 1001-A East Harmony Road Bob Niland Suite 503 Internet: rjn@csn.net Fort Collins Colorado 80525 USA Article 9527 of comp.periphs: Path: cs.utk.edu!stc06.CTD.ORNL.GOV!fnnews.fnal.gov!uwm.edu!news.alpha.net!news.mathworks.com!zombie.ncsc.mil!tecsun1!not-for-mail From: newbury@tecsun1.tec.army.mil (George Newbury) Newsgroups: comp.periphs,comp.sys.ibm.hardware,comp.os.ms-windows.misc,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc Subject: Re: Advice requested for ink-jet printers Date: 17 Feb 1995 09:15:40 -0500 Organization: U.S. Army Topographic Engineering Center, Ft. Belvoir, VA Lines: 28 Distribution: usa Message-ID: <3i2b2c$7ql@tecsun1.tec.army.mil> References: <3hufon$fht@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: tec.army.mil Xref: cs.utk.edu comp.periphs:9527 comp.os.ms-windows.misc:45748 comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc:22821 cbloch@cyclops.iucf.indiana.edu (Chuck Bloch) writes: >Kevin Davis (kdavis@dave.mis.semi.harris.com) wrote: >The 540C is similar, except only 1 cartridge goes in at a time. So to >switch from B/W to color, you first have to change cartridges. >The advantage of having 2 cartidges is as follows. Older models used >a single cartidge. But when it was out of black, you had to replace >the whole cartridge, regardless of how much color ink was left (unless >you were into refilling). That did not please many people. I have an old 500C. The difference between the single and dual cartridges is that with the single cartridge, in order to get a true black you must use the black cartridge. Otherwise, using the color cartridge, you get a "sort of" very dark green. This is not much of a problem for most of the color work, but is not pretty for text. The newer models with 2 cartridges can print a true black AND color without having to switch. If you looking for excellent ink jet color check out the Epson. However, if you are looking for the 90% solution and good hardware the HP offerings cannot be beat IMHO. -- George E. Newbury III newbury@tec.army.mil (703)355-2751 [DSN345] Article 9533 of comp.periphs: Path: cs.utk.edu!stc06.CTD.ORNL.GOV!fnnews.fnal.gov!uwm.edu!news.alpha.net!news.mathworks.com!hookup!swrinde!cs.utexas.edu!convex!not-for-mail From: jrwilson@convex.com (Jim Wilson) Newsgroups: comp.periphs,comp.sys.ibm.hardware,comp.os.ms-windows.misc,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware,comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc Subject: Re: Advice requested for ink-jet printers Date: 17 Feb 1995 17:10:32 -0600 Organization: CONVEX Computer Corporation, Richardson, Tx., USA Lines: 48 Message-ID: <3i3ad8$52b@convex1.convex.com> References: <3hu2lj$br@crl12.crl.com> NNTP-Posting-Host: convex1.convex.com X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Xref: cs.utk.edu comp.periphs:9533 comp.os.ms-windows.misc:45815 comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.misc:22877 John Bolin (bolinj@crl.com) wrote: : Kevin Davis (kdavis@dave.mis.semi.harris.com) wrote: : : ....The things I'm concerned is (in : : order of preference): : : 1. b/w print quality : : 2. price : : 3. color print quality : : 4. price/life of paper/ink cartridges : : 5. speed, and noise level. : . : . : . : Also, if you can think of any other advantages of using an ink-jet printer : as opposed to a 24 pin dot-matrix, list them because I'm trying to convince : my wife in having us use part of our tax return in buying one. I work with both the Canon BJC600 and an HP 550c. Others have made good general comments. Let me add a few qualitative comparisons. HP550c. Very easy to operate, not temperamental at all. Print quality is very reasonbable, but not as good as the Canon. I would strongly recommend it for family use. It is very simple to configure and use. Canon BJC600 has better print quality, but is much trickier to configure to do the various things you need it to do. The DIP switches are very powerful but a bit arcane to the uninitiated. Speed can range from very impressive to terrible, depending on how you install and use it. For example, if you set it up to print in color at high resolution, but you are only printing a black and white document it will be very slow, even if you have a very fast machine. If you set it to print black and white, then it speeds up considerably. (I learned this after considerable frustration with slow printing documents.) Also, the earlier versions of the drivers for windows contributed to the speed problem. The Canon's print cartridges are easier to goof up or mess up. They are cheaper (about $8.00 each) than the HP's, and there is a separate cartridge for each of the four primary colors, including black. In sum, if you are stickler for quality, Canon is best. If you are not computer and mechanically inclined the HP is best. REgards, Jim Wilson Convex Computer Data Management products. Article 27756 of comp.periphs.printers: Path: cs.utk.edu!gatech!swrinde!howland.reston.ans.net!nntp.crl.com!pacbell.com!well!miwok!usenet From: colin@nbn.com (Colin Gilboy) Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers Subject: Re: Wanted: Opinions on HP 520 inkjet Date: Mon, 19 Jun 1995 01:20:43 GMT Organization: North Bay Network, Inc. news server - not responsible for content Lines: 38 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <3s2j8v$3s4@miwok.nbn.com> References: NNTP-Posting-Host: srf-32.nbn.com X-Newsreader: Forte Free Agent v0.71 priest@newsserver.sfu.ca (David Priest) wrote: >Which sums it up nicely: I'm torn between laser and inkjet, >and for my purposes an inkjet would be a whole lot cheaper >IFF the printer lasts for a few years. >How's your HP 520 doing? How long does your ink last? >Any printhead clogs? etc. >Thanks, >priest@sfu.ca mine works great - I have had several ink printers over the years and was able to sell them to get the newer models - better paper handling primarily as I print labels. I print a lot and think I get 1,000 copies as advertised. It does a great job with windows, although it is slower than using interal fonts with a laser printer as the computer must rasterize all the pages before printing starts. Occasionally - a 20 page run of mixed true-type and postscript fonts I have to check that nothing has quit on me. The 520 has been faultless on paper handling. Also look to refilling the cartridges - I have used Grove as a supplier as he sells 8 oz containers of ink and a syringe. This is less expensive than the "premade kits" seen at Egghead, etc. This cuts the cost to $4 or so per use. I generally use new cartridges on my printer for business and give my wife for her deskwriter (mac) refilled ones. If I have a long run that is only for my use I will go to draft mode and use a refilled cartridge. I do have a spilled ink stain on the carpet and did total one printer when the ink spilled out allover the printed cirtuit board. I decided it was time for the latest printer. colin Article 38260 of comp.periphs.printers: Path: cs.utk.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!in1.uu.net!d2.tufts.edu!pignoli.med.tufts.edu!user From: ameisler@opal.tufts.edu (Alan Meisler) Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers Subject: Bad design in Stylus II??? Date: Thu, 11 Jan 1996 14:54:29 -0500 Organization: Tufts University (Sackler School) Lines: 24 Distribution: inet Message-ID: NNTP-Posting-Host: pignoli.med.tufts.edu I've been shopping for a color inkjet (who hasn't these days :) and came across a notable design flaw in the Epson Stylus Color II. (according to the store representative who was helping me.) Apparently, if you raise the piece of plastic covering the ink cartridges, which is very easy to do if you're looking "under the hood" and there's no warning not to do this, you release the vacuum which allows the printer to work and essentially ruin the cartridge. I was printing a demo at the Microcenter (in Cambridge) and the first printout had horrible banding which went away after the ink cartridge was replaced. Considering the price of the tricolor cartridge ($35 or so), this seems like an easy way to accidentally throw away money. (Obviously, once you know this, this is mainly a problem with those of us who have kids or unknowledgeable co-workers who also use the printer.) Question: Does the Stylus Pro have this problem? I don't believe the Canon or HP have this problem since they use a heating method of applying ink instead of vacuum spraying. BTW: The one feature that is pushing me towards the Canon 610 is that it uses four cartridges. Don't have to throw away a tricolor cartridge after printing a few all-yellow pages. Article 38259 of comp.periphs.printers: Path: cs.utk.edu!cssun.mathcs.emory.edu!gatech!newsfeed.internetmci.com!news.kei.com!news.ece.uc.edu!babbage.ece.uc.edu!nka1.med.uc.edu!yuan From: yuan@nka1.med.uc.edu (Jie Yuan) Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers Subject: Re: 5*3 is not right Re: my naive math Re: clearify Re: no dye please... Date: 11 Jan 1996 13:59:32 GMT Organization: University of Cincinnati Lines: 164 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <4d3544$ab7@babbage.ece.uc.edu> References: <4d0gng$5vt@babbage.ece.uc.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: nka1.med.uc.edu In article , doug@netcom.com (Doug Merritt) writes: > You changed the subject line above again. Would you please stop doing that? > This makes it impossible for people disinterested in the subject to > KILL the thread, and makes it impossible for people interested in the > subject to search for it. Advice taken. I did not want to make the lives of our readers harder than necessary. I thought I can make it easier for the readers to find what the current focus is by looking at the changes in the subject line. I kept most of the words in place and added only a few, so that killing/ searching is not too hard to do. > > In article <4d0gng$5vt@babbage.ece.uc.edu> yuan@nka1.med.uc.edu (Jie Yuan) > writes: > >I think you counted it wrong. > > Perhaps, but: > > >a total possible of 5^3 = 125 colors, which is an increase of > > No, definitely not. You're forgetting my primary point, which is > that the order of colors doesn't matter. This means that you are > guaranteed to get the wrong answer if you use exponentiation; > it will be a matter of multiplication. > > Prove the point to yourself on the simpler case of black and white > dithering. A 2x2 cell will give you 5 grey levels, a 3x3 cell will > give you 10, 4x4 will give 17. Look how slowly those numbers are > climbing. You won't suddenly see them growing exponentially just > because you now use 3 colors instead of 1 (black). Can you count? How do you count? Can you explain how you got the "5*3=15"? No, I did not forget your point. I liked your point and took it into my calculations. My appreciations to you! As an example, here I assume that there are 2 primary colors and each can be rendered in 5 levels (0-4 drops). When color 1 is at level 0, the 5 levels of color 2 will result in 5 different outputs. When color 1 is in its level 1, there are another 5 output levels due to the choice of color 2. When color 1 is on level 2, there are another 5 outputs. The logic goes on and leads to a total 5^2=25 colors. If you count them all, you'll get 25 outputs. This logic can be expanded into 3 primary colors and result in 5^3 different colors. I can put in another way. There are 5 levels of C, M, and Y. Thay are named as C0, C1, ..., C4, M0, M1, ..., Y4. The positional factor is ruled out. For example, 2-D arrays of myyy, ymyy, yymy, yyym will be counted as 1 color (it would be named C0M1Y3 in my convention. See bellow.) For the combinations of 2 colors, C and M, I can have: C0M0, C0M1, C0M2, ..., C0M4 C1M0, C1M1, C1M2, ..., C1M4 C2M0, ..............., C2M4 C3M0, ..... C4M0, ... ..........., C4M4 All the colors are unique. If you find any redundent color, please let me know. If I expand this logic into 3-dimensional array, I should have 5^3 unique colors/elements, don't I? > > >(64 - 4 = 60 extra colors), it is clear that dithering can do > >much better, potentially. You could argue that there is no > > No way. You and I may screw up our arithmetic, but you are reaching > a conclusion that is very well known throughout the graphics industry > to be wrong, showing that some part of the argument is flawed. I may have flaws in my derivation. May you tell me what they are? I actually think the HP's approach to color depth will get the same number of unique colors as the dithering method. Your derivation was correct at the beginning, but you missed the counting mechanism later on. I was unable to find my way of getting rid of redundent elements in the array until you pointed out that each primary color (like gray levels in monochrome) can have only 5 levels of saturation if absolute positions do not matter. It is a very clever approach and I admire you. > > I claim that HP is under-rating the number of colors, because the > order in which dots are stacked should matter. The drops won't 100% > mix on the page, so each one should partially mix but also partially > form a filter layer. The order of those layers will make a difference. > So therefore with four passes and any of three colors, there could > be up to 3^4 = 81 colors per pixel. Of those, HP uses a 2 bit per color > scheme to select, which means only 64 colors out of the 81. > > Dithering, on the other hand, in a 2x2 cell as we've been assuming > (to go from true 600x600 dpi to dithered 300x300 dpi), has exactly > these possibilities for the 4 pixels ('-' represents white): > > ---- CCCC CCCM CCCY CCMM CCMY CCYY > CMMM CMMY CMYY CYYY MMMM MMMY MMYY > MYYY YYYY ---C ---M ---Y --CC --CM > --CY --MM --MY --YY -CCC -CCM -CCY > -CMM -CMY -CYY -MMM -MMY -MYY -YYY > > equals 35 colors. There are no other usefully different dithering patterns, > because the order of the pixels doesn't change the average color. So I > should not add YYYM to that list, because MYYY is already there. > > (In my previous post I forgot to count the patterns with white '-') You forgot that the printing mechanism that can drop each of the primary colors at 1-bit depth at each daughter dot position. You are assuming that if the printer has dropped a C daughter dot at a position, there will be no M or Y at the same position. I think you are wrong. Prove it if you can. > > Even if I missed a few patterns, it will not hugely change the answer. > The list will not reach 5^3 in size, no way. > > Formalizing this logic into an algebraic formula is conceptually trivial > but easy to make mistakes on. But you will certainly not end up with > any exponentials. See my derivations above. > > Dithering is a waste of spatial resolution, if you've got any other > possibilities. Think about it: why make video boards that can generate > any of 2^24 colors in each pixel, if dithering would give better results? You are right about spatial resolution :) Printers are lucky to be able to achieve such high spatial resolution as 600 dpi in color. However, doing multiple-bit color depth is not easy for printers. So, we have all these compromises. HP is leading the way on multiple depth and I hope it will keep up the good job and others to follow/compete. It is conceivably possible for the consumer grade inkjets to go higher than 2-bit at 300dpi, or 1-bit at 600dpi. I wish that the 600dpi machines could do 2 or more bits by repeating the drops at the same position, soon :-) Video is a different matter. It is very hard to manufacture a color tube that has higher than 72 dpi recolution, but varying the depth of color is a piece of cake in electronics. I vaguely remember that current monitors have as high as 100 dpi resolution. Correct me if you know a better one. Fortunately, human eyes are not too good at spatial recognition and 72 dpi seems to satisfy our needs pretty well. Until the manufacturing of 600 dpi color tubes become feassible, we are better off with 24-bit 72 dpi than without. I know that "slide maker" and 3-tube color TV sets can produce much higher resolutions (more than 600 DPI for some of them). They used monochrome tubes (in primary colors). Such tubes do not need a mask/grill that a tri-color tube must have. It is easy to scan at very high frequencies in monochrome tubes. I'd love to have such a monitor mounted in the wall in front of my desk that does 24-bit at 600 dpi, and I guess Bill Gates has one/more in his office/home :-) Jie Article 44282 of comp.periphs.printers: Path: cs.utk.edu!news.msfc.nasa.gov!newsfeed.internetmci.com!usenet.eel.ufl.edu!warwick!lyra.csx.cam.ac.uk!news.ox.ac.uk!sjoh0014 From: sjoh0014@sable.ox.ac.uk (Dan Evans) Newsgroups: comp.periphs.printers Subject: Re: BJ vs Laser ? Date: 4 May 1996 05:54:27 GMT Organization: Oxford University, England Lines: 17 Distribution: inet Message-ID: <4merej$9pm@news.ox.ac.uk> References: <318978E0.7E5F@aals01.alcatel.com.au> NNTP-Posting-Host: sable.ox.ac.uk X-Newsreader: TIN [version 1.2 PL2] Robert Pittana (pittanar@aals01.alcatel.com.au) wrote: : Im a relative newbie to the world of printers and seeing I am : considering : buying one I would like to know what are all the pros and cons regarding : BJ's and Laser ? If you want b&w printouts only, and if you have the money - then I'd say go for the laser. You don't get banding, which is a _big_ problem with bjs (especially Canon ones), and the per-page cost with lasers is lower. Also, don't get ink spread with lasers. Yeah, go on, get a laser printer, you know you want one ;-) ....... --Dan Evans. dan.evans@sjc.ox.ac.uk http://users.ox.ac.uk/~sjoh0014